Would You Support War Against Russia?

[Spider]

1. Ukraine can be so easily chopped into a pro western half and pro russian half that supporting them doesn't mean anything, since half of them don't even want to be supported. We go in on their side and then what? Wind up supporting the pro western side in trying to maintain dominion over the pro russian side?

2. I'm beginning to think the EU would give East Germany back to Russia before even seriously threatening to fire a shot at Putin. I agree that this tests the legitimacy of the EU as an actual Union as opposed to a trading bloc, and so far I'm very unimpressed.

3. I'll support war with Russia over this if and only if the EU throws itself into the fray full force. No pussyfooting around, no half assed "support units" and "logistics security forces" as we've seen before. I want divisions of German tanks and mobile artillery, the entire goddamned Armee de Terre, preferably spearheaded by the Foreign Legion, and a bunch of spaniards lobbing grenades. I want dudes name Lorenzo and Giovanni in fighter aircraft, and a bunch of brawny badass Poles with rifles marching east. I want the RAF flying SEAD missions this time.

Give me all of that, and sure I'm right there with you. 100%. But do this weak assed kick stones around until the US shows up BS again, and I'm telling you and the split-down-the-middle Ukrainians both to go to hell.

[Dobby]

Most of the EU cares about as much as the US. The Ukraine is pretty distant from say the UK or France. So I fail to see why these two countries (amongst others) would support a war more than you guys would.

The EU is a trading and political bloc, not a military one. The EU has never and never will act in military union. Military wise, most member states are NATO members, an organisation that was set up to counter the power of the USSR. But NATO includes you guys too. Arguably European nations such as Germany have a lot more to lose in a war that would mean little more to them than it would to you guys as it currently stands. Why does/should Germany care about whether the Crimea is Russian or an autonomous Russian dominated republic within the Ukraine.

For me, something has to dramatically change before military action even needs to be thought of. Like Russia going gung ho on the entire Ukraine, instead of in majority Russian regions

[The Dharma Bum]

If the EU is not a military union as well it will be short lived.

[The Dharma Bum]

I support war. Putin isn't going to stop with Crimea.

[Spider]

The EU should care because its their backyard. Its their economic sphere that suffers from increase competition with an expanding Eurasian Union, with its finger on so much of the energy supply. That's a matter of vital access to resources, not merely tariff collection. Its European defense priorities that have to be reshuffled by increasing strategic reach from the east. Its the the EU that has to bear the brunt of an unchecked Tsar who's being tacitly told that he's allowed to do whatever he wants to whomever so long as he keeps the gas flowing. Economically and strategically, Russians being Russians is a situation that has to be managed, not kowtowed to, and for a spectrum of very good reasons.

But, as you say. If they don't give a damn...neither do I. If its not worth fighting for themselves, then it sure as hell isn't worth it for us to do it for them.

I do think its troubling that your willing to so quietly sit there while Putin carves off chunks of a sovereign state on the basis of ethnicity as opposed to their own rhetoric about the inviolability of borders. I mean, hell. Lots of ethnic germans in Switzerland. Lots of ethnic French in the low countries. Lots of ethnic germans in poland and vice versa. Maybe its time to break out the bandsaws in earnest.

[Dobby]

[Spider]

Maybe you could also explain what the UN is while your at it.

Everyone is perfectly well aware of what the damned EU is, in case you didn't realize. When we say EU we mean Europe...and as NATO members with decades of integrated planning, training, and drill, Europe is perfectly capable of fielding combined military forces. If they weren't there would be no point in NATO even existing.

Diplomacy doesn't mean shit this late in the game. The Russians have already moved and couldn't care less about diplomacy. They're going to blow whatever hot air words they think they need to in order to get what they want, but as long as Europe's response amounts to "Whatever keeps gas prices down! You've got it!"....they'll get it.

[The Dharma Bum]

[Dobby]

The EU is going to gain from this even if it only gets half of the Ukraine becoming pro European. It never had any of the Ukraine being pro-european before. Its Russia that loses and Putin is trying to minimise Russian losses. Many of the EU countries do rely heavily on Russian gas, but Russia relies heavily on these countries buying its gas. Its a mutual relationship that both sides can't afford to jeapordise born out of neccessity. Neither side are going to screw the other one over due to this.

I massively fail to see why any EU country should or would want a military intervention. Economically the EU gains as it is and militarily many countries will get screwed economically along with the problems that come with any war. Military intervention is so distant, it's not wanted nor required.

Plus again I can't reiterate this enough. The EU is not a military bloc.

[Spider]