Russian vassalization of Ukraine

[exploited]

I'm not sure that the fascism is really a big influence in either party to the conflict. Russia is doing this because the national security of their country has been placed at tremendous risk. It is the same reason why the US flipped on Cuba.

The ultranationalism of Russia is being appealed to, but it is not the driving force behind their actions. And certainly there are some elements in Ukraine pursuing a political agenda under the guise of European integration. But not enough to say that the Revolution was illegitimate.

[The Dharma Bum]

USA=corrupt oligarchy
Russia=corrupt oligarchy

Forget trying to to justify war with the idea we are the "good guys". It's a childish notion.

[The Dharma Bum]

[The Dharma Bum]

The only reasonable solution is to partition Crimea and Ukraine.

[The Comrade]

[The Dharma Bum]

You are still blathering on about right and wrong as if that has any relevance to the issue.

[The Comrade]

Answer the question lord dodgington, earl of the house of avoidance.

[The Dharma Bum]

Manifest destiny, american exceptionalism, just war theory

These are the thinking errors that inform almost all US thinking on foreign policy. You simply are not able to think beyond the framework imposed by these simplistic concepts.

This is the source of the "If you are with us, you are against mentality" that the US has consistently used to intimidate it's "allies" into going along with it's programme of aggression.

[The Dharma Bum]

This is the kind of shit that is happening there:
http://beforeitsnews.com/power-elite/20 ... 44998.html

That thing about hiring snipers to shoot some people on both sides and then blame the other guy? That is a US signature foreign policy move.

We do it all the time.

[exploited]

It is perfectly obvious that any military intervention in Ukraine is about expanding Western dominance, and not at all about democracy, sovereignty or stability. Ukraine entering NATO and the EU will be destabilizing... In fact, that is the exact reason we've pursued it, and the same reason why Putin acted.

Many members here have already admitted to this... And yet they insist on pretending that we are "the good guy," and that Russia is the bad guy, as if any situation of this complexity could possibly be described in binary terms.

The simple truth is that both the US and Russia have acted like giant assholes for sixty years, both have murdered millions, both seek to force other states to accept their point of view, and neither can be supported by anybody who actually values the three concepts mentioned above.

This is why any solution which will improve stability but decrease Western power has been rejected by those members. Because it isn't about making the ME safer or promoting democracy in the Ukraine. If it were, the US would be telling Israel to hand over the nukes immediately, they'd be opening up natural gas reserves and telling the Sauds to clean up their act, they'd be apologizing to Iran for selling WMD to Iraq and providing a safe haven for a brutal dictator and enabling Israeli war crimes in Palestine. We'd contact Russia and say "Listen, we won't put NATO troops in Ukraine, and we'll make Ukrainian membership to the EU conditional upon continued access to your naval base in Crimea. All you have to do is get out of Ukraine."

But, like I said, stability, friendly relations, improving our world isn't the goal... It is simply all about making sure our oligarchs stay rich, and that Westerners can keep on being oblivious fat f**k.